3 Willys
Bigger Hammer
- Dec 6, 2021
- 49
- Wyoming
- First Name
- Shane
- Willys Model
- CJ
- Willys Year:
- 1947
- Dec 6, 2021
- #1
Hi, I just picked up a 53 CJ3B for my son and it has a Buick V-6 in it. The block number is 25514290 and this comes back to a Buick 3.8l, 231 V-6 between the years of 1979-1982. This was an even fire motor. Here is the problem I'm having. The distributor is a points style and from everything I can tell is the same as what was in the 225 Dauntless V-6 Motors in the late 60's Jeeps. The motor is backfiring some and I think it's the dwell time for the points/timing and I want to upgrade to HEI. Only one problem, I'm not for sure if this is an even fire or odd fire motor. I'm starting to wonder if the internals like crankshaft, cam, etc from a 225 were put in the 231 block. It has the 231 intake and 2 barrel carb. Is there anyway to tell without dropping the oil pan and looking at the crankshaft to determine what this thing is? Thanks.
3 Willys
Bigger Hammer
- Dec 6, 2021
- 49
- Wyoming
- First Name
- Shane
- Willys Model
- CJ
- Willys Year:
- 1947
- Dec 6, 2021
- #2
diggerG
Well Oiled
- Oct 2, 2011
- 6,321
- Wrentham Ma.
- First Name
- Greg
- Willys Model
- Wagon
- Willys Year:
- 1963
- Dec 6, 2021
- #3
Dropping the pan isn't hard. ?????
diggerG
3 Willys
Bigger Hammer
- Dec 6, 2021
- 49
- Wyoming
- First Name
- Shane
- Willys Model
- CJ
- Willys Year:
- 1947
- Dec 6, 2021
- #4
diggerG said:
Dropping the pan isn't hard. ?????
diggerG
It is for me right now. I'm recovering from Covid Pneumonia and Long Covid and am on Oxygen. I would like to figure this out without dropping the pan.
3 Willys
Bigger Hammer
- Dec 6, 2021
- 49
- Wyoming
- First Name
- Shane
- Willys Model
- CJ
- Willys Year:
- 1947
- Dec 6, 2021
- #5
The valve covers are definitely early 80's 3.8 l Buick. I've also read since I made my OP that the 225 crank shaft will not fit into a 231 block. With that said it looks like someone put a 225 Dauntless odd fire Distributor in a 231 even fire motor. The firing order of 1,6,5,4,3,2 is the same for both the 225 odd fire and 231 even fire motors so I guess that is how they made it work? I guess they wanted points and not HEI? I have no idea, but it looks like I'll have to find an HEI Distributor for an early 80's Buick 3.8 l / 231 V6.
Stakebed
Well Oiled
All-Star
- Mar 4, 2020
- 12,241
- Northern California
- First Name
- Joe
- Willys Model
- Pickup
- Willys Year:
- 1957
- Dec 6, 2021
- #6
3 Willys said:
The valve covers are definitely early 80's 3.8 l Buick. I've also read since I made my OP that the 225 crank shaft will not fit into a 231 block. With that said it looks like someone put a 225 Dauntless odd fire Distributor in a 231 even fire motor. The firing order of 1,6,5,4,3,2 is the same for both the 225 odd fire and 231 even fire motors so I guess that is how they made it work? I guess they wanted points and not HEI? I have no idea, but it looks like I'll have to find an HEI Distributor for an early 80's Buick 3.8 l / 231 V6.
Better ign system anyway. Late 70's to early 80's are not full computerized ign.
diggerG
Well Oiled
- Oct 2, 2011
- 6,321
- Wrentham Ma.
- First Name
- Greg
- Willys Model
- Wagon
- Willys Year:
- 1963
- Dec 7, 2021
- #7
3 Willys said:
It is for me right now. I'm recovering from Covid Pneumonia and Long Covid and am on Oxygen. I would like to figure this out without dropping the pan.
Sorry
I had no idea.
I do not believe the odd fire distributor would work in the 231 even fire in any case.
diggerG
3 Willys
Bigger Hammer
- Dec 6, 2021
- 49
- Wyoming
- First Name
- Shane
- Willys Model
- CJ
- Willys Year:
- 1947
- Dec 7, 2021
- #8
diggerG said:
Sorry
I had no idea.
I do not believe the odd fire distributor would work in the 231 even fire in any case.
diggerG
I wouldn't think so either, but it's the only explanation I can come up with. It is definitely an even fire 231 motor and definitely a 225 distributor with points. I think because the firing order is the same is how they got it to work. It runs pretty good, idles great, it just backfires when pushing the gas pedal starting out.
3 Willys
Bigger Hammer
- Dec 6, 2021
- 49
- Wyoming
- First Name
- Shane
- Willys Model
- CJ
- Willys Year:
- 1947
- Dec 7, 2021
- #9
Stakebed said:
Better ign system anyway. Late 70's to early 80's are not full computerized ign.
Yes, agreed. I'll see if I can find one at the local salvage yard as I'd like to get the wiring to go with it. If not I'll have to buy a new one or refurbished one.
Stakebed
Well Oiled
All-Star
- Mar 4, 2020
- 12,241
- Northern California
- First Name
- Joe
- Willys Model
- Pickup
- Willys Year:
- 1957
- Dec 7, 2021
- #10
3 Willys said:
Yes, agreed. I'll see if I can find one at the local salvage yard as I'd like to get the wiring to go with it. If not I'll have to buy a new one or refurbished one.
There are options at Rock Auto
Herk
Well Oiled
- Dec 24, 2011
- 1,056
- Boise, ID
- First Name
- Nate
- Willys Model
- Pickup
- Willys Year:
- 1960
- Dec 7, 2021
- #11
Never seen a non-HEI even fire distributor. GM went to HEI across the board in 75.
3 Willys
Bigger Hammer
- Dec 6, 2021
- 49
- Wyoming
- First Name
- Shane
- Willys Model
- CJ
- Willys Year:
- 1947
- Dec 7, 2021
- #12
Stakebed said:
There are options at Rock Auto
View attachment 112099
Ha, I was literally just looking at those when you posted the link. I wonder how good that cheaper one is? I'm not familiar with GM HEI, I'm a Mopar guy. Is everything contained in the HEI distributor? Is there any other parts I need besides the wiring connectors?
3 Willys
Bigger Hammer
- Dec 6, 2021
- 49
- Wyoming
- First Name
- Shane
- Willys Model
- CJ
- Willys Year:
- 1947
- Dec 7, 2021
- #13
Herk said:
Never seen a non-HEI even fire distributor. GM went to HEI across the board in 75.
That's what I'm finding and why I'm assuming that the points distributor on it is an odd fire from a 225 Dauntless. It looks exactly the same as one for a 67 CJ5 with a 225 Dauntless. My only other question is if it would be possible to put an odd fire crank from a 75-77 Buick 231 in an even fire block? I can't find an answer to that question and I may have no choice but to drop the oil pan and confirm.
ndnile
Well Oiled
All-Star
- Oct 23, 2017
- 2,765
- Northern CA
- First Name
- Doug
- Willys Model
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- 1959
- Dec 7, 2021
- #14
I cannot envision how a 225 odd-fire dizzy would work well in a 231 even-fire motor. The spacing between the lobes in the dizzy define when each cyl fires relative to each other. I would expect the lobes in the dizzy to be differently spaced. The 231 fires every 120 deg. It would have all the lobes an even 60 degrees apart from each other (remember that dizzy rotates at 1/2 rate of crank). The 225 fires at 90, 150, 90, 150, 90, 150, so the dizzy lobes should be 45, 75, 45, 75, 45, 75 to match the irregular firing interval of the 225. Note that I have not laid eyes on either dizzy.
Stakebed
Well Oiled
All-Star
- Mar 4, 2020
- 12,241
- Northern California
- First Name
- Joe
- Willys Model
- Pickup
- Willys Year:
- 1957
- Dec 7, 2021
- #15
3 Willys said:
Ha, I was literally just looking at those when you posted the link. I wonder how good that cheaper one is? I'm not familiar with GM HEI, I'm a Mopar guy. Is everything contained in the HEI distributor? Is there any other parts I need besides the wiring connectors?
Non-computer controlled HEI is standalone. Be aware, HEI requires heavy gauge 12v power lead. I'd say about 12ga based upon my visual observations. You'll also need the HEI dist. cap, coil and HEI specific spark plug wires.
I provided the Rock Auto listing because most wrecking yards no longer have inventories of pre-computer cars and trucks.
You're looking for a relatively narrow slice of automotive history. As @Herk wrote, GM went to HEI in '75 model year but computer influenced (not entirely computer controlled) in the early eighties.
3 Willys
Bigger Hammer
- Dec 6, 2021
- 49
- Wyoming
- First Name
- Shane
- Willys Model
- CJ
- Willys Year:
- 1947
- Dec 7, 2021
- #16
ndnile said:
I cannot envision how a 225 odd-fire dizzy would work well in a 231 even-fire motor. The spacing between the lobes in the dizzy define when each cyl fires relative to each other. I would expect the lobes in the dizzy to be differently spaced. The 231 fires every 120 deg. It would have all the lobes an even 60 degrees apart from each other (remember that dizzy rotates at 1/2 rate of crank). The 225 fires at 90, 150, 90, 150, 90, 150, so the dizzy lobes should be 45, 75, 45, 75, 45, 75 to match the irregular firing interval of the 225. Note that I have not laid eyes on either dizzy.
That's what I was thinking as well and why I'm thinking I will have no choice but to drop the oil pan and confirm the crank is by chance a 231 odd fire crank is in an even fire block. It's highly doubtful, but I would hate to sink some money into a new distributor and it not work. I read last night on the CJ5 forum of someone with the same issue a points odd fire distributor in an even fire motor so it must occur. My boy is 14 and he can handle the job, I'll supervise.
The body on this CJ3B is in really good shape and I got a good deal on it. I'm starting to think that backfiring issue is why the former owner sold it to me because he couldn't figure it out. He mentioned timing when we bought it.
3 Willys
Bigger Hammer
- Dec 6, 2021
- 49
- Wyoming
- First Name
- Shane
- Willys Model
- CJ
- Willys Year:
- 1947
- Dec 7, 2021
- #17
Stakebed said:
Non-computer controlled HEI is standalone. Be aware, HEI requires heavy gauge 12v power lead. I'd say about 12ga based upon my visual observations. You'll also need the HEI dist. cap, coil and HEI specific spark plug wires.
I provided the Rock Auto listing because most wrecking yards no longer have inventories of pre-computer cars and trucks.
You're looking for a relatively narrow slice of automotive history. As @Herk wrote, GM went to HEI in '75 model year but computer influenced (not entirely computer controlled) in the early eighties.
Awesome, thank you for the information. I'll probably just buy everything off of Rock Auto. I also read about the 12 gauge wire and will change that out. I just sold the kid's go-kart, so now I can fund this project.
3 Willys
Bigger Hammer
- Dec 6, 2021
- 49
- Wyoming
- First Name
- Shane
- Willys Model
- CJ
- Willys Year:
- 1947
- Dec 7, 2021
- #18
Don't tell my wife, but I was out in the shop dragging my Oxygen cart around. Fortunately I have a lift, so I can work standing up.
I pulled the oil pan and it's a good thing I did as my final suspicion looks to be correct. The crankshaft is an odd fire crank with two rods right next to each other with no gap between the journeys like an even fire crankshaft should have. Bottom of the block where the oil pan covers is the # 237287. I think that is a serial number, but I can't find any information on it. The crankshaft is marked GM 9.
I am going to conclude that it is a 79-82 Buick 231 block, intake, carb and I think heads as the valve covers match those model year covers. This even fire 231 block then has a 75-77 odd fire crank shaft and I assume camshaft along with the Distributor. The former owner thought it had a 225 probably based off the distributor. This jeep originally came out of Colorado.
I am so confused......
ndnile
Well Oiled
All-Star
- Oct 23, 2017
- 2,765
- Northern CA
- First Name
- Doug
- Willys Model
- Wagon
- Willys Year:
- 1959
- Dec 7, 2021
- #19
3 Willys said:
Don't tell my wife, but I was out in the shop dragging my Oxygen cart around. Fortunately I have a lift, so I can work standing up.
I pulled the oil pan and it's a good thing I did as my final suspicion looks to be correct. The crankshaft is an odd fire crank with two rods right next to each other with no gap between the journeys like an even fire crankshaft should have. Bottom of the block where the oil pan covers is the # 237287. I think that is a serial number, but I can't find any information on it. The crankshaft is marked GM 9.
I am going to conclude that it is a 79-82 Buick 231 block, intake, carb and I think heads as the valve covers match those model year covers. This even fire 231 block then has a 75-77 odd fire crank shaft and I assume camshaft along with the Distributor. The former owner thought it had a 225 probably based off the distributor. This jeep originally came out of Colorado.
I am so confused......
Hopefully you have the 225’s heavier fly wheel. Helps smooth things out.
3 Willys
Bigger Hammer
- Dec 6, 2021
- 49
- Wyoming
- First Name
- Shane
- Willys Model
- CJ
- Willys Year:
- 1947
- Dec 7, 2021
- #20
ndnile said:
Hopefully you have the 225’s heavier fly wheel. Helps smooth things out.
I had to drop the bell housing cover to get to the back two bolts on the oil pan. The fly wheel is a heavy duty looking thing so I suspect it is. It runs smooth, I really thought it was an even fire based on how it idles. It reminds me of a flathead 226 Super Hurricane. I even think they may have went through the transmission and transfer case as well as everything is painted nice shiny black. The only rust I can find on this thing is the supports under the passenger side floorboard are going to need replaced. No other rust on this old thing.
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